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I am excited we have Sabina Read with us today. I’ll tell you more about Sabina in a moment.

Sabina and I met, quite unexpectedly, via an intro kindly given to us by our podcast producer, Daryl. And just with the intention of, “I think you guys will get along. I see a lot of commonalities. Let me do an email intro”. And he wasn’t wrong.

It has been such a pleasure to get to know this remarkable woman. She is this rare combo of SUPER smart with a keen sense of fun and she’s a very kind person too. Her final words to me before pressing the record for this episode were “let’s get loose Gillian… I’ve been loose all week, let’s do it”.

And I just have to say, I love the joy that Sabina brings to things. She has a deep sense of intention that she brings to her work, and a real honesty as well. So, I think you’ll find this conversation a real delight.

But let me tell you a little bit more about her. Sabina is a psychologist, media commentator, speaker and facilitator, and co-host of a podcast called Human Cogs.

In addition to this, Sabina is the resident psychologist and social commentator at Radio 3AW, which our Melbourne listeners will know very well. She was also host to and mentor on Chanel Nine’s TV program – Dream Job – a fascinating series where they help 16 Australians find a new career path. How cool huh!

Sabina is also the brand ambassador and resident psychologist at SEEK and if you google her under this entity, she offers plenty of career tips and insights – of course we will be plugging into some of that expertise today, so you walk away with a deeper understanding of what’s stopping you from shining more brightly at work.

There is more to tell, but let’s dive in and meet Sabina.

Gillian Fox:

Well Sabina, welcome to the podcast. It is delightful to have you here. Thank you for joining me.

Sabina Read:

It's so great to be here Gillian. And already, we've had a great chat before we started recording, so I feel ready to go.

Gillian Fox:

We're launching our second podcast on air now. So maybe, to kick things off, because you do have quite an extraordinary career background, and you do a lot of different things today. Maybe just tell us a little bit about your career and what your role is.

Sabina Read:

It's a really good question and sometimes it's one that I struggle to answer even myself. And I think that's because I have what we would call a portfolio career, which is a fancy word for me. What that means is that I do lots of things that ignite my passion and that fill me up. And I often see new opportunities or, usually it's people not the opportunity, that I'm drawn to. And so, then I think, "I want some of what they're having", and off I go in that direction, and sign up or connect, or collaborate on different projects. So, that's the long answer. The short answer is I'm a psychologist, but when people hear the word psychologist, I think they think I'm going to pull a couch out of my handbag, and I'll lay them down, and we're going to explore their inner child.

And I do a little bit of that, and I have got a couch and I'm quite keen on inner child conversations. But as a psychologist, my deepest belief is that we all bleed the same. And so, when people ask me, "And who do you specialise in? What population or what people", my answer is, "Humans", they want me to say boardrooms, or couples, or depression. And that's not how I, that's not my lens of the world, it's not my lens of people. And I think through that lens, I've been able to diversify the work that I do with the psychologist title if you like. So I'm a speaker, I do a lot of keynotes, I do facilitation, I do do minimal, now, therapy work. And I also dabble quite a bit in the media space. And I do that because of the reach that it affords me.

When I'm with one person, it's very deep work, whether I'm in a coaching or therapeutic capacity, but it's only one person that I'm reaching. And when I'm perhaps on a stage talking to a thousand people, it's maybe not as deep. Although there are hopefully some gems and takeaways that people leave with, but the reach is greater. And then to my radio and TV work, the reach can be thousands, or hundreds of thousands or more. So I sort of traverse, I think, between this depth and breadth in the work that I do. Another job that I have is I'm the resident psychologist and ambassador at Seek. And Seek is very much about creating and honouring meaningful and satisfying working lives. And I think about that a lot, because our work is such a big part of our life, and my mandate is about creating meaningful and satisfying lives full stop. So there's a really nice synergy between the work that I do with Seek and the way that I view the world.

Gillian Fox:

I love the way you describe your career, and how some things have evolved, how you've looked at some things, opportunities, you've been attracted to them and you've moved in. For a lot of people, Sabina, they can spend two years thinking about one career transition. What do you think enables you to be able to, you know what I mean? Just step into new spheres, and be so curious, and yeah, take up new opportunities.

Sabina Read:

I think fear gets in the way for many of us, we think, what happens if I fail? What happens if someone judges me? What happens if I get rejected? Will all of that say that I'm not good enough? And I kind of have more of a thrill than a fear. And we know psychologically that fear and excitement feel are, in the same part of the brain lights up when we feel fear or excitement. So, sometimes it's useful if you're feeling fearful to think, "Well perhaps maybe I'm excited, I'm ready for something here, and we can tweak the way we think and approach based on our interpretation of how we feel". But that's not just a hack for me. It just comes naturally. I think that I'm genuinely excited. I find myself like a child in a candy store, clapping and thinking, "I like what you are saying and I want to be part of what you're about, and tell me more about what you do, and I wonder how we can do something together".

And my experience is, is that people are open and porous to share passion, and enthusiasm, and vulnerability, and to say, "I'm not coming to you with a neat proposal because I'm the grand authority, but because I like how you make me feel and maybe we can do something together". So I know that that's probably not the way people speak in a lot of corporate settings, but my invitation to everyone, whoever you are, whatever stage of career, gender, seniority, pay, whatever you earn, that humans, we know, we're hardwired to connect. So, when we work in silos, when we operate with a veneer of, "I want to only show you parts of me that I think are palatable", we restrict our capacity for connection and the possibilities that arise for all of us. And I think that's true in both our working lives and our non-working lives. And even that for me is an artificial delineation, because I just think it hampers our lives.

Gillian Fox:

So do you think we need to bring more of our whole selves to work, do you?

Sabina Read:

I don't know another way, Gillian, I don't know another way. I know why we don't, again, I think it comes back to this story of fear and judgment and being excluded from the tribe because we might look silly, or we might look different, or we might not fit the mould. But, at the end of the day when we bend ourselves into some pretzel to please others, it comes at a pretty deep cost to us. And I think it erodes our sense of self and who we are. And that's exactly what we were trying not to do. We were trying to preserve our sense of self. And in the process of being someone or pretending, or only showing the parts that we think will be accepted, I think erode is the word I use. I think, and when we feel eroded, that can build resentment, and anger, and frustration, and clinically speaking, I think is a pretty slippery slope to some conditions in the mental health sphere like depression and anxiety.

Gillian Fox:

Yeah, yeah. Very serious issues. I think another thing that fuels women, particularly with fear, is asking for a pay increase.

Sabina Read:

Mm-hmm.

Gillian Fox:

And there's a lot of evidence around this. I was reading this fascinating piece, I think it was in the Harvard Business Review,80% of women felt underpaid and two-thirds of them had never asked for a pay increase. And those that did described it as this incredibly stressful experience. What's your tip, because I know you've got good insights, career insights, as the ambassador of Seek. What's one of your tips around those awkward salary conversations?

Sabina Read:

So the first one is to make sense of what money represents to us. Money represents so many different things to each of us. It's not a one size fits all. For some of us, money will equate with validation. For others, it may mean freedom. For some of us it means that we can impact others in the world. Money for some of us literally means love and acceptance. Others, it may mean kudos. There's a very long list and now I will pull out my couch and throw their little child down on it. Gently, gently of course. We tend to learn about money through our younger years and our earliest memories will probably be our parental templates around money.

And, so when we are asking for more of something that feels, depending on what it represents, and how loaded it is, and how much we desire it, and how worthy we feel of it, and what it would mean if we have more, and what it would mean if we don't have more. These are the complexities that I think create the dis-ease we feel around asking for more money. Actually, just as I'm saying that, I'm picturing Oliver asking for more, "Please sir, can I have some more?" When you ask for more of anything, you feel vulnerable, because you are seeking and yearning something more. And if you perceive that someone else is in a power position where they will tell you, you can or can't have that, it's a very vulnerable state of being.

So this is quite a psychological lens through... Yeah, when we overlook that, or say, "Well it's just a salary conversation", I think we are missing a lot of the nuances that sit under this conversation. So that'd be my first question to everyone. "What does it mean? What does it represent to me, this money?" And that might give us some sense of where the triggers and the pain points are for us. But secondly, I would say that when we ask for money, it really is a reflection on how we feel about our own worth. And not just our worth as a whole human, but what are we bringing to the workplace and to the role that we hold, that is impactful, that is perhaps more than what was initially expected? Where have we grown? Where have we delivered? Where are we creating change?

And it doesn't matter what job you're in. Or again, what seniority or what sector, but most of us in our jobs are looking for some kind of meaning and some kind of impact in the lives of others. And whether you're in a service industry, it really, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. So I want to be clear that I'm not just talking C-suite or senior corporates at this point. And when you are asking for more money you can very clearly identify in your own mind how you have created that change and those impacts, then I think it's easier to ask for that to be acknowledged through financial reward.

And my third point, I think, on asking for a salary increase is to recognise that sometimes there are practical financial limitations that the organisation you work with may not have additional funds. So, although you want to be very clear about what your goal is and what your ask is, it can be helpful to have a plan B backup as well, and by that I mean, just to be thinking about if I can't be rewarded with more dollars, how else can I be rewarded? Because if you hear "No" on the financial ask, and then you walk back out the door, you're actually negating your worth and your value and why you came to the table to have this conversation in the first place.

Gillian Fox:

I love that point around being clear on your value. One of the things, it came as a result of doing the podcast interviewing a beautiful human being called Briony Benjamin. And Briony was talking about this thing that this idea she came up with while she was working at Mama Mia called the Ta-Da list, and the Ta-Da list was this idea of writing all the "Ta-Da!" moments down, and she wrote them all down because she was terrified of the performance review piece. It was like a new experience for her. So every Friday, she put all these things on the Ta-Da list, and then when it came to preparing, she actually felt really confident and good because she had a record of all these lovely achievements that she really believed in.

Wasn't making things up, she had written them, had captured them. And so we've created our Ta-Da list for the women, and I really love it. It's such a simple thing for them to do, because I can't even remember what I did last week, Sabina, let alone six months ago. If you're going to think about the value that you're bringing an organisation, or to the people around you. So I think it helps you get very clear on that value. And to your point, when you're clear on your value, you can be much more driven and have a more certain conversation, aren't you, around asking for something?

Sabina Read:

Yeah, it's no longer loaded, because it's pretty clear what I'm coming with and what my offering is and why you need more of me. Yeah. I do love the Ta-Da list. That is such a gorgeous phrase. And I would say some people would find it hard to identify what to put on their Ta-Da list. So one invitation there might be what have other people said to you? And I think sometimes to capture feedback that you get, even if it's in a sticky note on your desk, an email, anything that you've received in writing, throw it in a Ta-Da file, and let others speak for you. And even if it's not to take to a salary conversation, or a pay raise conversation, when you're having a shit day, to open up your Ta-Da file from other people, and to capture the words that they've shared, and their words of appreciation and validation, I think we all made that sometimes.

Gillian Fox:

Yeah, I do too. That's a lovely expansion of the idea. Thank you. It's getting bigger.

Sabina Read:

It's like an accordion file now. The Ta-Da file.

Gillian Fox:

That's right. That's right. But why not, hey? What do you think is one of the hardest things for women navigating their career in the work environment today?

Sabina Read:

We've all heard this before, but I think we are so... No, I was going to say hardwired. We're not hardwired. We are conditioned. We are conditioned to be everything to everyone. And because of that conditioning, I'm going to use the phrase we've used a million times before, I think the mental load weighs heavy on us. So, we can be really clear about what we want in our workplace and in our role, we can be clear about what's in our Ta-Da file and what value we bring to the work that we do. But, for me, and the stories I hear from many women as well, it's the overall load that hampers our capacity to move forward and to do what we want to do and to shine bright, and impact, and learn, and grow, and all the things we might desire, because there's simply too many balls in the air.

So the bag that we carry, the baskets we carry, whatever it is, the metaphor, whatever visual you picture, the overall load is too heavy. And I think that that slows us down. And that is very much a social, a socialised issue. As I said, I was going to say something about being hardwired, but it's not at all. It's that we learn to be thinking about everyone else's needs, and sometimes that's too much. It's too much for us to do what we want to do in the workplace. So I think that mental load is probably one of the greatest hurdles for most women.

Gillian Fox:

What can women do differently though? Is it about saying "No" to some things? Is it about prioritising? What do you think we need to do more of, less of, or differently to help ourselves?

Sabina Read:

Well I think to recognise that if we don't do it someone else can. These are the things that we don't want to do. So, the obligation that we feel, or perhaps the patterning that we've followed throughout a lifetime, needs addressing, we can hold that up and think, "Well, if you've got young children, and you're thinking, "Yeah, well I need to do, make their lunch a certain way", maybe it's about being good enough. I think on some of the other demands of our life, the phrase that I often use is "good enough". And when I use that phrase, I know, I've said, used that phrase in front of thousands of people, and there's always people that sit back, and raise an eyebrow, and kind of question, because-

Gillian Fox:

The perfectionist.

Sabina Read:

They want that, we're being told, "You have to be your best self, and strive, and be a gold medalist, and 'good enough', how can that be okay?" But I really like that phrase, because good enough gives us permission to fall down sometimes, to not be the gold medalist in every domain of our life. Because no one is. And yes, you used the word perfectionism. Perfectionism is often rooted in fear. Again, fear of not being good enough. And so, if I do everything right, if I'm absolutely perfect, then I will find a way not to be judged, and not to be not good enough. But of course that doesn't work, because no one can be perfect. So then we fail in some regards at that strive for perfectionism, which creates more of a critical dialogue, and the cycle not only repeats, but it actually magnifies.

Gillian Fox:

Yeah, yeah. It's so true. When I wrote my book, which was quite a few years ago now, and I just interviewed some incredible women, and one of them is this lady called Jane Huxley. And Jane's talking about this moment, where she just realised she was a shit boss. There was one carrot in the fridge, she was yelling at her children. There was this phenomenal list, and she said, "I just can't cope with it anymore. 'Just 80%' is going to be my new motto, because I'm just not pulling off anything at the moment". And the way she articulates this story is just so relatable.

Sabina Read:

Of course. Just to add to that story, I remember a woman I know when she had toddlers and was trying to be everything to everyone, and was holding a senior job, and she just got to dinner time and she said, "I can't deal anymore". And she threw Nutri-Grain all over the floor, and said to the toddlers, "Go for your life". They thought that was the greatest game, they got Nutri-Grain for dinner off the floor. I reckon a little bit more Nutri-Grain off the floor is probably good for all of us.

Gillian Fox:

Every mother would love that story and appreciate it.

Sabina Read:

And anyone, this is where, I mean, we talked a bit about this before we started recording today, Gillian, but the gender piece is very real. The gender challenges are real, but there will be many men also, whether they're listening to this conversation or not, who feel a pressure to be perhaps a provider. That's an old construct that still hangs heavy for a lot of men. We don't want that to be the way of the world now. So I think we do need to recognise that men, men also need to throw Nutri-Grain on the floor, whatever that means to them.

Gillian Fox:

What person do you think is going to succeed in the work environment? What attributes do you think we need?

Sabina Read:

We want to be acknowledged and seen in the workplace, and we want to see other people through this lens too, as being the complex and rich and messy humans that we all are. One of the things I've observed in the last three years working with, well, many people in many different roles, and many different organisations, is that there used to be that my manager had the answers, or my leader, or my boss had all their shit together, I would say. And then through the pandemic, we were on Zooms, perhaps with our manager or boss, and they've got a squawking child in the background, and a dog vomiting over their shoulder, and a screaming partner. And so it's been the greatest leveller.

And I don't want to bang on about the pandemic because we've been banging on about it forever, but it's still very present, and I do believe that we have gained more benefits than we have lost. Now that is, and I'll say that with respect to the many lives lost aside from lost lives, I think what in the workplace we have blown so many myths so sky high that we need to continue to honour them. I think the main one for me is this, I think "the whole self" is kind of a trite phrase because we've heard it too much.

Gillian Fox:

Yes, I know. I always try to find a better way of articulating it as well. Because I don't think that summarises what you're trying to say.

Sabina Read:

It's just me, I just want to be me. And when your, a five year old is sort having a tanty, they're pretty much saying, "I just want to be me". And when a 50 year old is having a tanty, they're kind of saying the same thing, "I want to be me. I want to be accepted and valued for who I am and what I bring. I want my belief systems to be seen and heard, and I want to know that I'm impacting other people in some way".

Gillian Fox:

Yeah, yeah.

Sabina Read:

I think it's kind of that simple. And so, that's what I mean, by the whole self. I think that people that succeed, not just in 2023 but for centuries to come, will be those that feel they can bring some level of honesty, and vulnerability, and flaws, and fragility to the workplace. Now that doesn't mean, if you bring all of that and you don't bring a level of capability, and follow through, and capacity, and skills, well no, it's not enough. But I assume that when people are employed in a job, that that technical aspect has been, those boxes have been ticked. So let's not worry about can I or can I do the gig, those bits I can do. So now I need to bring all these other parts of me that may have hung in the shadows until now.

Gillian Fox:

I've heard you talk about work-life boundaries, because I know everyone asks you about work-life balance, and it is one of those things that gets bandied around. But tell us about your theory around work-life boundaries.

Sabina Read:

Yeah, you're absolutely right. So, in a lot of my speaking gigs, people say, "How do we get more work-life balance?" I just reject that phrase, there's no part of that phrase that works for me, because work-life balance infers that we have this perfect synergy between those two parts of our lives. And I don't know anyone that has a perfect balance between those two parts of our lives. So, long ago I replaced that phrase in my own thinking with "work-life boundaries". Of course, now we know there are phrases like, "work-life integration," which is probably speaking to a similar idea.

Gillian Fox:

Work-life effectiveness.

Sabina Read:

Yes. But what about just "life?" What about just "life?" Life effectiveness and life boundaries? Because if we have life, then that will spill into our relationships, our working selves, our parenting selves, our health, all the parts of us. So, when I talk about work-life boundaries, or life boundaries, I'm going to call them now.

Gillian Fox:

I love that, though, because I think we do try and get too complex, don't we?

Sabina Read:

Very.

Gillian Fox:

And to compartmentalise everything, and then have to measure everything. It's like, "No, this is what we're actually talking about is our lives".

Sabina Read:

Yeah. This is our lives, this is our lives, and this is our lives regardless of who we are. So, by boundaries, what I'm talking about is knowing, again, like I was talking about with your team member, what we need, what ingredients do we need in order to be our best selves? And by best selves, it's another trite phrase, but by best selves, I'm talking about when do I feel most alive? When do I feel most invigorated? When do I feel most inspired? Impactful? Because when we know those things, we can then share those with the people that we work with, and the people we love, and the people we live with, and the people we sleep with, and the people we parent, and the people we neighbour. And we're not always going to get what we want because we say, if I say the conditions that help me thrive is spending 10 months a year on a beach in Tahiti, well that might not be possible.

So, it's a matter of breaking down the dream, the aspiration, and then what are the ingredients in that? So if I did aspire for 10 months, I don't, be in Tahiti for the year, what am I speaking to there? Do I want some level of freedom, I'm interested in being with other cultures? Is it literally that I'm more drawn to warmer climates? Do I want to have more time on my own? What is it that comes with the fantasy? Because with every fantasy, there are very real ingredients that sit under that fantasy.

And once we can identify and articulate what those are, I think we can start to put those boundaries in place in our lives, and articulate them, express them to ourselves and to others that we live and work with. When I talk to people about boundaries and also values, particularly values, often people are like, "Yeah, but I don't really know. I'm not clear, not 100% clear what mine are", but you can bet your bottom dollar that you know what it feels like when your boundaries are breached and when your values are breached.

Gillian Fox:

Yes.

Sabina Read:

So if you're a bit lost in this conversation, maybe instead of, if you can't quite grasp what your values are, and what your non-negotiables are, think about times when you feel really uncomfortable, hard done by, frustrated, what value, what boundary was breached? And there's your answer.

Gillian Fox:

Most definitely. So then, you must be learning things all the time yourself. Do you take your own personal development into account in all of this? Does it interest you? Because you're just so surrounded by it, the whole time?

Sabina Read:

Yeah, but I don't feel like I need, oh I mean, in fact, I do sign up for a lot of more formal payday opportunities, and then sometimes I find myself paying and signing up and then not even turning up because I'm not, I'm too busy. But I think for me, growth and learning, it's the fabric of my life. And so, it's not just through formal learning, it's through every conversation. And I'm genuinely curious. I find myself asking as many, way more questions than I have answers. And I believe that every human has something to teach us. I think our children are great teachers. I think our animals are great teachers. There's a book that I've got, it's called "My Dog Is My Mirror", I think it's called. And I remember when I first read that, really everything's our mirror. So our house is our mirror, our relationship's our mirror, our child is our mirror, our dog is our mirror, our health is our mirror.

So we have to hold the mirror up, and look, look into it. And sometimes we don't like what we see, and that's an invitation to shift and pivot in different directions. But, yeah, I know for sure I'm a life-long learner. And, again, sometimes people think that education, and learning, and growth fit in the hallowed halls of Harvard or something. They're everywhere, there's learning opportunities everywhere. And, I don't know another human who I think would say, "If I'm not learning something, a part of me dies". I know for me it does, but I actually think that's pretty universal.

Gillian Fox:

Yeah, I think you might be turning up the dial a little bit more there, Sabina.

Sabina Read:

I did tell you just recently that yes, I've seen just in the last few days, Esther Perel speak, and I've been to conferences and events, and I can't even really explain what transpires at some of these events that I turn up to, but I don't need to. I just go, I think be porous. That's a good takeaway. Be porous in the world.

Gillian Fox:

So what sort of key, final question, what sort of key relationships have been really important to you in your career? Have you had mentors, or, how do you have the right people around you? Or track the right people?

Sabina Read:

That is such a good question. And I do mentoring, I mentor myself. But as far as mentors for me, I actually think it's my inner tribe of female friends that are the greatest glue that I have. And they're all extraordinary women. My closest female friends, they are impactful in the work that they do. They're smart, and savvy, and they also hold me to account. They'll pull me up, and sometimes I think you need people in your inner circle like that who don't just say, "Oh it sounds good to me", or "it looks like you're doing great", because they're the people I'm most vulnerable with. So, again, and I guess it depends on who's in your world, but I feel very, very connected, and very intimately connected to my female friends. I will say, one of, just thinking about people over the years, it was actually Anita Roddick, before I was a psychologist, I worked in communications.

Yeah. She was incredible, who founded the Body Shop. I remember reading her book, "Body and Soul", and she was very much about the intersection of values and business at a time when no one had uttered those two words in the same sentence. She cared about the environment and recycling. She cared about not testing on animals, but she also was into potions, and lotions, and makeup. And I'm a bit of a makeup addict myself. You're not getting it now, because we're on Zoom, but I love, that's something because it feels fun. I can spend a lot of money and time playing with makeup, and that seems like something mindless and meaningless. But I think there's a creativity to it. I think there's a sense of play and I think we all don't have enough play in our lives. And sometimes, I feel like painting my face like a child with glitter all over my eyelids. Well, why not?

Gillian Fox:

Why not?

Sabina Read:

That, I digress. I think Anita Roddick was a real trailblazer and it was at that time I read her book, I thought, "I think I would like to work at the Body Shop". And I did work, I did a stint there in communications. That was very impactful to realise that you can honor the things you care about and be successful in business. And that was, decades, many decades ago now.

Gillian Fox:

It stayed with you.

Gillian Fox:

Sabina, it has been such a pleasure chatting with you. I feel like I could keep chatting for a couple of more hours, but we have to wrap it up. But, thank you. I think you have such a lovely way of normalising things and bringing such a beautiful honesty to all the conversations. You're very easy to talk to, and I know our listeners would've gained a lot from all your insights today. So thank you.

Sabina Read:

Thank you, Gillian. That's beautiful feedback. I appreciate it.