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I’m delighted to have Glin Bayley as our guest today and for the next episode of Your Brilliant Career. So, if you’re thinking 2023 is the year I earn more money, then this is the podcast series for you. If you want a pay increase based on where you are, listen to these episodes carefully. Or if you want to transition to a new role externally this year and will need to negotiate – then listen even harder.

Honestly… the conversations across the two episodes are full of excellent tips, advice, practical things that you can do when it comes to negotiating and asking for more money. And I think as women, we have a track record for not wanting to talk about money and we’re not well educated in this area. So, this is a great education process for all of us.

Let me tell you a little bit about Glin. Her journey began in 2014, when due to personal circumstances, her life was turned upside down. At that time, she was questioning everything – even asking, 'Is this it?' 'Is this the life that I always dreamed of?' She knew it wasn't. She knew there was more. So she courageously followed her heart to the other side of the world. She left the UK and she travelled here to us in Oz.

Then she made another bold move. After 17 years working as a senior executive in the finance industry, she started her own business. This is how she became an expert in salary negotiation, helping mostly women ask for more money.

Thank goodness Glin made that leap of faith because she knows what it takes to get the money you deserve. This is Part One of the Asking for More Money series.

Gillian: Glin, welcome to the podcast. It is a pleasure to have you here today.

Glin Bayley: Thank you so much, Gillian, for having me here.

Gillian: I was actually very excited about having this chat with you. Not because it's just you, beautiful Glin, but because women don't talk enough about money. I remember, it was a long time ago actually, reading an article in Harvard Business Review and the article headline was Nice Girls Don't Ask. I remember it really striking a chord with me about women, it's true, women don't advocate for themselves enough at work. Now, that was a long time but we're still talking about the same issue.

Glin Bayley: We absolutely are, sadly.

Gillian: Yeah. So it'd be good to pull apart some of this with you today. What in your mind is the biggest challenge for most women when it comes to that negotiation process?

Glin Bayley: The biggest challenge I see, first and foremost, is the lack of recognition that everything's negotiable. So we go in with a mindset that things are fixed and that I can't negotiate this. It could be the small thing from, for example, if you're staying at a hotel and you haven't got the robe size that you need for yourself, instead of thinking, I can call down and ask reception if they've got a different size or see what else is available, we just assume what is there is all that is available. So the first step that I often see women not entering into the negotiation process, is because they're not even aware that there is a process that they can enter to start a negotiation, to start a conversation. I think if you go in with the mindset that everything that's on the table has the potential to be negotiated, then you look for value in different ways. To think okay, well, whilst this potential salary package may or may not be right for me, but what else could I negotiate to create the overall package that could be right for me? So, if you can raise that awareness around, everything's negotiable, that's one.

The other challenge is women fear more about how they might be perceived in a negotiation. As much as we still don't want to believe that women are treated differently in negotiations to men, we are, because there's a huge social culture and expectation on us as women on how we're supposed to behave. And just like that title was Nice Girls Don't Ask, we're expected to be nice. And when we ask, it seems that we're being too assertive, perhaps even too big for our boots and how dare we make that ask? Whereas, men don't get that same labelling and that same judgment applied if they're going to make a negotiation ask. It's just expected that, of course, he'll make an ask and we can enter into a dialogue around whether that's possible. But women have to also manage the likability factor, because the way we negotiate impacts how we're perceived. And in order for women to do well in their careers and in negotiations, they have to maintain that likability factor, which men don't have to worry about in the same way.

And until social cultures and norms are broken down and we can start to be seen more equal, regardless of our gender differences, we are needing to be more mindful in the negotiation process around how we're perceived. I think that fear of how might I be perceived if I make the ask, or will someone think I've got too big for my boots or am I being too greedy… Will I potentially lose the job opportunity or the promotion if I ask for too much? That fear and that perception of how we might be viewed, stops us from even entering the process. So a lot of what is the challenge is a psychological challenge. Because what I know for sure is, when women are skilled in negotiation, the skill isn't the problem because they're adaptable and they get that skill very quickly. But it's the psychological battle that you have with yourself internally about, one, is this even negotiable and two, how might I be perceived if I do enter into this negotiation?

Gillian: Yeah. It is a real fear, isn't it, of women thinking they're going to damage their image through the process? There's a lot of research, isn't there, that indicates that women don't ask enough? But there's also research that says... There's so much research, we could go on. But that women ask for raises as often as men, but they're less likely to get them.

Glin Bayley: That's true. Based on those research, that's true. Yes, I've had the same.

Gillian: What do men do differently in the discussion? I'm mindful of the bias that you just talked about, but what do men do that makes them more effective at negotiating and asking for more money?

Glin Bayley: Yeah. The distinction, what I've noticed over my time is, women are other-focused, men are more self-focused. What we're often better at doing... So when we're thinking about types of negotiation, if I'm going to simplify it in its basic format, there's two. There's a lot more, but if I break it down into two types, collaborative negotiation, and competitive negotiation. Women are better when it comes to collaborative negotiation because our nature, our desire to nurture and build and grow and create value is so much stronger than our desire just to compete and capture value for ourselves. So why we might get less in a negotiation is because a man wouldn't be thinking about what's in the best interest of the business as a whole, the team as a whole, and as an individual, and collectively package that so it suits both parties. They're more comfortable in competitive win/lose scenarios than women are. Women are more akin in their nature and their approach to choose win/win scenarios, which can sometimes mean they let themselves take less of the win and give a greater share of the win to the other party. Where the man would typically, and this is very generalised, typically would be like, I'm focusing on me, number one. I come first and then we'll see what happens next.

Gillian: Is there a lesson there for us though? Should we be doing more of that, Glin? What do you think?

Glin Bayley: I think longer term, collaborative is where you want to be. Because you want to be in a space of creating value, rather than just distributing value between one party and the next. And instead of splitting the pie, you're growing a bigger pie and therefore there's more to go around. I think women in that environment can create so much more beyond what you can just capture. But I think there is a lesson to be learned when it comes to, whether it's salary negotiations or promotions, not to only have the lens of the other party in mind, but to be comfortable in putting yourself first. Because the gender pay gap is still 14.1% difference between the average pay for a full-time role for a man versus a woman. And that was only, the latest metric was in August 2022. So the gap still is very real and it exists and we can't begin to even close that, if we're already letting go of what our expectations of our value is, and giving more to others without recognising the need to close the gap for ourselves first.

Gillian: Do you think the Albanese government’s pay secrecy ban, where they're going to make the salaries more transparent, will be conducive to helping us with that pay gender gap?

Glin Bayley: I think pay transparency will help, but it's not the only thing that's needed. Because when it comes to pay transparency, it will highlight what a role... Say, for a role being advertised, you can see the salary bracket and that's great. But it's whether or not what's then negotiated behind that is actually honoured in the same way. So often roles can still be advertised as, here's the pay and sometimes it's not transparent, sometimes it is. But what women often get asked and men too is, "What are you currently earning?" And the danger is, if we're sharing what we're earning, if we've had a history of not negotiating our value and keeping up with the market rate for the role, regardless of gender, then we're going to perpetuate the salary deficit by only building on top of what we've already got, rather than what is commensurate for the value of the role. I think therefore women have to play a role in having more bolder conversations around salary, such that they're not letting their prior salary dictate their future salary. And focus very much on, well, I understand the market rate for this role is X and therefore that is what I'm expecting. Or comparable roles around the market also offer this, so therefore the price for the role that I'm willing to settle on is within that range.

Gillian: Yeah, that's such a valid point, Glin. Because I think we think of ourselves based on our past. But if you're going to a very elevated role, you should be considering your salary in the context of that role and responsibilities. How do women determine their market value and what they should be asking? Because that can be really hard, particularly if it is a significant jump for them.

Glin Bayley: Yes. So there are only two sources of data really, people and published sources, right? In a nutshell, it's published sources and people. If I start with the published sources, the easiest way is to look at whether or not the job has a pay grade on that role in the first instance. Where does it sit? So, if it's an external role asking the recruiting line manager or the recruiting consultant what the pay band is for the role, where does that sit? Then looking at not only the role title but what are the role responsibilities? And then comparing that to other roles that might also be available in the market, not just in the same industry but in different industries. So using tools like SEEK is a great tool, but you've also got lots of salary comparison sites as well. Glassdoor is another one where people post their salaries. But the downside of that is, it's published data but it's not necessarily validated data, so it could be skewed. But also recruiters do lots of salary surveys. So that would be one way of going, okay, what has the business paid before? What is the salary band? What's published data that I can find around that role that would give me indication? The powerful one, and often not the one that's most leveraged is speaking to people. And danger is, we don't talk about money as women generally.

With my friendship circles, I know over the last few years I have more openly talked about how much revenue I make in the business, what I take home from a profit margin perspective, what my salaries previously have been. And that is still a sense of discomfort for a lot of people. It's almost like this sense of oh, I'm telling you my deepest darkest secrets because I'm telling you how much I earn. But we need to create more transparency between ourselves, to be able to get a better understanding. So it might be asking the person who's recruiting what the role's paying. That could be the easiest way to go, what's the role paid, what's the market rate for it? But it could also be asking people who are in a position to make an assessment to go, based on this level of requirement for years experience, based on this level of responsibility required for the role, what would you deem this role to be paying? So it's a way of asking questions of your friends and those that could be informed, what do you think based on this set of criteria? Because you could have someone who's doing that very same role not wanting to give their salary up, but they might be willing to talk about what would a typical role with X, Y and Z criteria give?

I think if we do more fact-finding through people sources, it adds significant more weight to the published sources because it's so much more connected to your particular situation and your environment.

Gillian: Yeah. I love the idea of speaking to individuals. Obviously, you can't go out there and ask them exactly what's on their paycheck, which causes great discomfort. But I love the idea of getting people to talk to you in ranges. Based on my experience in my tenure, does 80 to 100,000 sound reasonable?

Glin Bayley: Sound reasonable... or in the right range? Am I overcooking it or am I under-cooking it? What would you advise and guide? Because when you're asking for advice and guidance, it doesn't feel like someone's trying to get into your deepest darkest secrets around your salary. But it does help someone give from an informed space, information that can then help future decision-making.

Gillian: Going back to an earlier part of our conversation where we were talking about a step up in your career, which would warrant a bigger salary increase, how important is it to be transparent when negotiating? Is it part of your strategy to inflate your salary at that moment? Or do you just be very open and honest and say, this was my role and this was my salary, but I am still wanting this of course, which is a significant increase for this role?

Glin Bayley: Yeah. It depends on whether you're applying for a role internally or externally. Obviously if it's internally, your existing package is very visible and people are already aware. But the fact still remains you have to anchor to what is the market rate for the role, and what does the role require in terms of responsibilities? But also, what does the role bring in terms of value to the organisation? And if you can have the conversations about, here's what the role requires and here's where I bring additional value, you can then talk to why the market rate role, or a higher than market rate, is actually more commensurate to the value you would bring based on all the things that you've contributed and delivered. If it's externally, I would still be in the camp of talking to, what are the aspirations for the role rather than talking to, what is my salary? I have in the past absolutely inflated my position. The reason being is again, I know that I haven't, one, always negotiated my salary. So I have in the past made the mistakes as accepting first offers, which I would never do again. Secondly, it's the view that I might be marginalised. So unless I can go for a higher value, I'm anchoring someone to think that I can accept something lower.

So from a psychological perspective in negotiation, anchoring has a huge effect on a negotiation outcome. And then if you anchor low, based on your existing salary being low, the perception is that you might be willing to accept a lower amount. Whereas if you're either inflating your salary and saying, I'm higher ... or actually saying, I'm looking for a range for a salary that's commensurate to this, but it'll be this, you're anchoring to, this is where I need to be. So if you're expecting me to come under, we're going to need to have a dialogue about how that's going to be possible and what other value could be exchanged in the process.

Gillian: And is that a rule, Glin, to always make sure that you negotiate beyond the first time, even if they come back with something great?

Glin Bayley: Yeah. Because people will never put their best offer on the table in the first go. So even if it's the greatest offer for you, the person that's put the offer down will never put their best offer down first go. So I would always be looking at that and go, sure, I'm willing to accept this but it won't be their best offer. So it's not about how much do I need, and what's the minimum I'm willing to accept? It's what's the maximum the other party can give me? And just that ritual of being able to be curious to explore what else is possible can be fun, if you're willing to do it in the way that isn't challenging or combative, or you don't have to be dismissive. This is what I think women particularly assume negotiation is. They assume it's conflict and it's not. So you can look at that and go, actually, if women are stronger collaborators when it comes to negotiation, in what way can I still make a counter offer that invites the other party to negotiate and not just assume it's a 'I will accept or not accept' scenario? And if you invite the negotiation to begin, then actually it becomes a two-way process and a ritual that both parties can get satisfaction from.

Gillian: It's knowledge in knowing that it's possible, isn't it? And then giving yourself permission to embark on that process. Very powerful, just that alone. It is that beautiful window, isn't it, when you get a new job, particularly if it's an external transition? It is your sweet opportunity to negotiate well. Because it's much harder to get an increase, a significant increase, once you're in there without a solid promotion.

Glin Bayley: And one of the other things I always say is around considering, what information are you gathering about your future employer by negotiating? Because just looking at how they respond, how they interact, how they engage the recruiter, how they're receptive to the process, is all going to be information on how they will treat you when you're in the business as well. So are they responsive to have a dialogue? Are they responsive to look at ways to create value for you? That might not be monetary but could be time, it could be flexibility, it could be additional investment in learning and development. It could be coaching support. Whatever that looks like, are they receptive to finding opportunities to work with you? Or is it a no, that's the offer, take it or leave it? So it gives you a lot of information about the culture of the business, about the individuals that you're going to be working with. I always think it's better to find that out early, than to get into a system and then realise you're up against someone who's never going to negotiate with you or has limited power to influence packages when you're going to need that influence the most. So it's a good way of gathering insight.

Gillian Fox: Thank you for listening. We will be back in the next episode to continue this conversation and do join us because we will be diving into the juicy stuff like when to walk, how to set boundaries, how to avoid overwhelm and also Glin shares the best negotiating tip I’ve ever heard. You will love it! I hope to see you there.