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Welcome to Part 2 of the Asking for more Money series with Glin Bayley. Part 1 was so much fun and if you didn’t get a chance to listen, you can find Episode 28 here.

In this episode we are going to dive into some more interesting topics, including at what point do we walk from the negotiation process? The planning process, which is so important for everything from thinking it through, to setting boundaries and how to stay calm in what can be a very emotional experience for many of us.

Glin also shares the best negotiating tip I have ever heard. I absolutely love it! So, listen carefully. It is excellent advice and will make so much sense once you hear Glin’s narrative around it.

Links we talked about on the podcast include:

RISE Accelerate program:

Glin Bayley

The Value Negotiator:

Salary Negotiation Course:

Free guide - How to make your value more visible at work:

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Your transcript

Welcome to Part Two of the Asking for more Money series with Glin Bayley.

Part One was so much fun and if you didn’t get a chance to listen, you can go back.

Glin is one of the best negotiation consultants in the country. She has a senior exec background in the finance industry, so she understands corporate, the business world, the way negotiations unfold. But she also understands women, and our limitations. And she generously shares so many tips and insights.

Now, in the previous episode, Glin talks about the real fear that many women have in that negotiation process and the fact that so many of us are not even aware that there is a process they can enter to start a negotiation, to start that important conversation. Glin also explains what men do differently that make them better negotiators. There is so much great content in that episode, so do check it out.

I love dedicating extra time to this topic because many women that I work with will say that asking for more money is something they’re well equipped to do. Even though they define themselves and highly capable and upfront communicators and I think this is partly because, if your track record has been that all the promotions and pay rises have just come to me, then it is an unfamiliar experience. But think about those pivotal moments in a career where you get the opportunity to step up into a new, more senior role. Of course, more money is an expectation. But how do you leverage that moment and ensure you get the salary you desire? The stakes are so much bigger now. If you want to be equipped, you need to start educating yourself now and that is what Glin is doing for us. She is sharing the knowledge that will help you ask for more money.

So today we are going to dive into some more interesting topics, including at what point do we walk from the negotiation process? The planning process, which is so important for everything from thinking it through, to setting boundaries and how to stay calm in what can be a very emotional experience for many of us. Glin also shares in this episode of Your Brilliant Career, the best negotiating tip I have every heard. I absolutely love it and it is asking for the money before you deliver the work. So, listen carefully. It is excellent advice and will make so much sense once you hear Glin’s narrative around it.

So, buckle up for Part Two. I know you’re going see tremendous value in this episode of Your Brilliant Career.

Gillian: When should a woman walk from the negotiation? Because sometimes you can get quite emotionally attached and it's like, I've just got to win now. And win is just getting the job, regardless of the salary. What sort of tips or insights can you offer in that process to avoid that outcome?

Glin Bayley: The key thing is, 90% of your negotiation success is based in the planning process. So it's not what happens in the room, it's how you plan for it in the process. And therefore your responses to certain scenarios are already thought through in your mind, and you've got responses prepared for them.

So when we're thinking about negotiation and when should you walk away, there's a Harvard Business School term, it's called BATNA. It stands for best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And what you want to go in, it's basically your option. What is your best alternative option to this negotiation that you're in? So if this one isn't going your way, is your best alternative better than what's then being put on the table? Because if your best alternative is better than what's on the table, then you know it's right to walk away than to accept it. Because the offer that is on the table has to be better than your alternative elsewhere, for it to be worth considering. And those alternatives can look to be either offers elsewhere, or it could be just staying where you are. You could make that decision to go, actually what I've got where I am, even if I don't change my salary, even if I don't change my role, is still a lot more attractive than taking this opportunity.

But you have to make those assessments around, what is your alternative, to the options that might present themselves in the scenario that you're in? So you can go through options like, what's my best alternative, what's my worst alternative, and what's my most likely alternative? And if any of those offers are better than each of those, then you go yeah, let me see where it fits. Is it better than my worst alternative, but not much? It's not my best alternative, where are my options? And if I can see that it's significantly better, then yes, I'll take it. But if it's not, I'll know I've already defined the parameters over which I'm evaluating the value of this negotiation and contract or offer, and then I can step away knowing that it's all done when I'm in my logic brain, not when I'm in my emotional centre. Because in the negotiation you're in your emotions, and you can accept or reject just based on the excitement or the nervousness that you might feel in the moment. Whereas if you've done your planning, when you're in a state of calm, clear, rational thinking, then having that in front of you when you're ready to yay or nay is going to be really powerful, because it'll stop you from making decisions from your emotions rather than logic.

Gillian: Yeah, makes so much sense, just having that clarity and the boundaries to guide you through that process.

Glin Bayley: Absolutely.

Gillian: Do similar principles apply with a pay increase? Because I feel that applies so beautifully to an external or a new role. What about just asking for a pay increase based on your existing role, what sort of preparation do you do there?

Glin Bayley:

Yeah, you start very early. I think the issue that most gets people caught out, is doing all of the work that they think will get them a pay increase. And then when it comes time to asking for that pay increase, having no leverage because they've already done the work. They've already delivered the outcome that the other party wanted. They've already been the shining star and over-delivered or over-given. And now they're expecting to be compensated for something that the other party already received the benefit for, and therefore you've lost leverage. So it becomes a much harder dialogue to have then, because what you're in the camp of doing is justifying, why should I get a pay increase? Well, here's the value I've brought. Here's everything I've done. Here's the extra hours I've worked and taken on the responsibilities of Susan in the office over here, and David in the office there. And here's all the holidays I've worked. Here's the value of the deal that we got done with the extra insights and knowledge that I brought to the table. You're in a space at that point of selling yourself, and we all know what it feels like to be sold to.

You're like oh, who's in the more powerful position when someone's selling to you? You are, right? So therefore the manager is being put in a position of power, because the other party's selling to them all of their benefits and features and why they should get this increase. And the manager can, depending on how well they are connected into the budget setting process, how much influence they have... how much desire they have to give back to their team and reward them for the contribution, the power sits with the individual who's in charge. Whereas what I suggest is, don't wait until you've done the delivery of the work to ask for your increase. Start it out at the year that you're going to have your progress measured and benchmarked. So when you're sitting down for your first goal setting and objectives setting process, have the conversation with your line manager upfront that says, hey, I'm just going to put it on the line straight away. I am not interested in being an average performer. I'm interested in being a high achiever, a high performer. So therefore I want to have a dialogue with you around what it looks like to be a high performer and be the best I can be. So that you can acknowledge me as not someone who's just merely achieving my objectives, but someone who's exceeding objectives. What would that look like?

Now, most managers don't have any idea of what exceptional performance looks like and therefore would not be able to articulate in a smart, measurable method exactly what that would look like. So that's where the planning comes in. Before you have that dialogue, you can go in expecting that your line manager isn't going to know that, and you can come with a view. So my view of exceptional performance would look like me doing this, this, this and this. And if I get these things in place... whether that's a project over the line or a system integrated or whatever the activity is, if I do that, I want to be having a conversation with you in six months about an increase in my salary. But don't worry about that right now because I'm not coming to you right now about a salary increase, but I will be coming back to you once we've worked through this. But in the meantime, can we set some clear measurable milestone check-ins, so that you can see that I'm on track to being an exceptional performer? By that point you've anchored, one, you're going to want a salary increase. Two, there's value that the other party is going to get in exchange for that salary increase. So you're not just asking and post-rationalising, you're doing it upfront and going, you know what? We're making a deal here.

I'm going to trust that you're going to honour this, but I'm going to give something to you first. But with the caveat, we're going to have this conversation in six months’ time. And you're doing that review then and every month that you're checking in on your progress you're saying right, so if I'm on track for exceptional performance, I want you to start having the conversations with the relevant parties about my increase. So can we catch up next month and you can let me know if I'm on track? Are you on track with meeting your part of that bargaining agreement that we've come to? And that's where I would say, get ahead of it. Start and bring early, state your intentions that match your intentions with your actions, and don't be afraid of asking for that upfront because you've actually got leverage in that point. Because if nothing's going to happen, you can then open the dialogue, it's five months out and go, right, if it's not looking like my salary's going to increase, let's have a look at other ways that I can get some remuneration for what I'm delivering. Because right now I'm not being incentivised to be the best and exceptional performance here, because you're saying salary is not available.

Let's have a look at and explore what is available, so I can appropriately be clear that my investment in you and this business is appropriately being rewarded.

Gillian: I love that, Glin. I think that's one of the best points around salary negotiation I've heard. I think it's strategic and smart and you've got absolutely nothing to lose. You're still going to elevate yourself through the power of that conversation and being assertive and presenting a solid business case that shows clear contribution to the business.

Glin Bayley: Absolutely.

Gillian: Do you go as far as setting your salary expectations in those conversations, as to what an increase looks like?

Glin Bayley: Yeah. Anchoring has a huge psychological impact and therefore, if you can anchor first and put something in the other party's mind about what you want, then it's powerful. There are caveats to that though. I will say, before you put your price or your number down, research it, make sure you've evaluated that, and you've asked for more than you need. Because if you ask for less than you need, you're never going to get 100% of what you want. So you have to ask for more, so that you can give someone the opportunity to negotiate from a position and give them satisfaction in the process too, that they've met you somewhere. So don't ever ask for less than you want, always ask for more than you want. Because there's a process and there's a ritual involved in that negotiation piece. But I will say, do your research because there is danger that if you are... and this is something that comes up a lot, if you are fair, fairness is subjective. In negotiation, there is no room for being fair. Because if you are fair by default, you sub-optimize the deal by 50% because you're already giving 50% of the value away. So, you've got to take fairness out of the equation.

Gillian: Wow, that's so interesting, isn't it?

Glin Bayley: Yeah. You've got to take fairness out of the equation, and what you want to do is calibrate your sense of fairness. So find someone who you know, who you deem to be completely unfair and unreasonable and calibrate what you're asking for, or intending to ask for, with someone else. And see if they can challenge you on that in a different way to give you that sense of, is my fairness value or need to be fair compromising my ability to get the maximum I could get? Because fairness is very subjective, so one party's view of fairness versus my view of fairness will be very different. So how can I make sure I'm not putting a number out there and then secretly having the other party go, is that all? Oh, that's a piece of cake. We can do that. But they're not going to tell you they can do that. They're going to make you sweat and work for it. So be informed, is what I would say. And that's why 90% of the success and the negotiation is done in the planning stages and all of the upfront strategic thinking around, how could these scenarios unfold?

Gillian: The job market's on the move at the moment, people seem to be bouncing around everywhere. How can women stand out in what is a pretty crowded market at the moment?

Glin Bayley: If I link it to negotiation, the best way to influence the value of something... influence someone's perception of your value, up or down, all depends on your positioning. So when it comes to then yourself, how are you positioning yourself to influence your perception of value to the potential recruiter, the potential job poster and employer? You can link that back to go, well, what is my positioning that could be one within the organisation? How am I influencing my standing within the organisation? What am I famous for? What do people know me for? If someone will say, X person stands for this, they can say very articulately, this is who you are.

So in order to be able to be seen, you have to be one, first and foremost, be willing to be seen. You have to be willing to stand for something. And most women wait for other people to stand for them, rather than standing for themselves. So in the first instance I would say, if you want to be seen in the job market, start to become conscious about your positioning of yourself. Are you positioning yourself as oh, I'd be really grateful for their opportunity? Or am I positioning myself, I'm standing in my power going yeah, here's all my experience. I've got a rap sheet of all of my deliverables over the X many years that I've been working. Here's my accreditations. But not only that, here's the value that I've brought to the businesses that I've worked for.

Because it is about exchanging value with the other party and they've got to see your value. But they can only see your value if you can see your value, because people believe what you tell them. So you've got to determine what your personal narrative is. What do you stand for? Do you believe in yourself? Are you seeing your self-worth as something worth someone else paying for your value? Because what I often find is, people get confused over internal value and external value. Externally, the market's going to determine your value, based on the role that's required, supply and demand, the experience and qualifications that are needed. But people often attribute the external value that they have been told by an individual or a situation to mean, that's all I'm worth internally. And that's not true. Your internal value system has to be so much more than what you think the external market is dictating. Because one moment the market could be down and therefore needing high-quality skills and therefore your value externally gets inflated. And when the market's up, your value comes down because there's a flood of candidates out there that are wanting roles and therefore suddenly the value you command in the marketplace is less, based on economics.

So you really have to be anchored in understanding your own internal value first and then recognise, what is the external value based on the situation? But don't let the external value influence your self-perception of your worth and the contribution that you make.

Gillian: Yeah. And managing that imposter syndrome is something I'm sure you work with women through this process as well.

Glin Bayley: Yeah. I think from understanding imposter syndrome is recognising, it's a story that we're telling ourselves based on our own expectations of where we think we should be operating at. And when it comes to imposter, we're looking at the gap. We're going oh, I'm doing this, people might be expecting this. When actually it's not people, it's you thinking that people are expecting this. And what I'm observing is the gap between where I am and where I perceive I ought to be. And by the nature of itself you're looking at that going well, is that actually true? Can I actually be sure that is true? And in the same way we test for salary and market and understanding fairness, people need to start testing for the perception that others have of them. So you might go oh, I'm not really that good at this. And someone else holding a mirror and go well, here's all the times that you've completely kicked butt when it comes to this, this and this. That's your superpower. So, find people that you can trust to help you calibrate your value in an objective way, so that you can more credibly and with authority stand for yourself when you are looking to capture someone's attention in the marketplace around your value. I think your personal brand plays a big role in that, but you've got to set the narrative of your personal brand.

And social media is a great platform for you to say, when I do a Google search on myself, is what's thrown back to me the message that I want to be giving to the world about my value? Is my authority, my credibility, who I am and what I stand for, being mirrored back? And if it isn't, that's what you've got to work on. Stand out by allowing yourself to be seen in the way you want to be seen, and you be in charge of that process.

Gillian: Yeah. The way you're describing it, there's a lot of preparation but it's an ongoing work in progress. So you're engaged in the process all the time. Whereas I think when people think about a negotiation or asking for a pay increase, they see it as a very isolated task.

Glin Bayley: So with the business that I've set up... because I've not long left my corporate role as a negotiation consultant, training corporates in commercial negotiation, chosen the name The Value Negotiator. Not because it's just a brand or it's a name, for me it's an identity. It's more than just a name. I think that's what in any negotiation you have to step into is, who is your true identity? Are you someone who shies away from difficult conversations and looks to stay in their comfort zone? Or are you willing to grow and step into your area of stretch and the possibility of what could be created by stepping into the unknown? You can't create possibility from a place of known. You have to be willing to step into the unknown to create new possibility beyond what you've ever achieved before, and that can be scary. I think the planning allows you to deal with the nerves, the adrenal response to stress, the fight or flight response that we all have when we're feeling anxious and under pressure. And certainly in a negotiation environment, it's intellectually stressful, so therefore your flight or fight mechanism can easily be triggered because your body feels unsafe doing something that's uncomfortable.

But the more you can rehearse, the more you can role-play, the more you can practice and be prepared, the better equipped you are actually in the room when you're ready to have that dialogue. And reframing it from, if you've got a narrative around negotiation being conflict, reframe it into being collaborative. How can I create value? How can I negotiate value for both parties, but not at the cost of my interests too? My interests matter and therefore if I'm in the right role, in the right environment and the right people around me, we'll work together to overcome any obstacles and challenges. To create value that is much bigger than what would exist if all we were trying to do was distribute value.

Gillian: Glin, what a fantastic conversation. You have provided so many great insights and I think very accessible and practical tips for women to really think about, which is just wonderful. I found it incredibly interesting as well, so thank you so much for joining us today.

Glin Bayley: You're most welcome. You're most welcome.

Gillian: Where can people find you, Glin? Where can they find you?

Glin Bayley: Glin Bayley on LinkedIn is one source. I've got as another source. And probably the final piece is, if anyone is looking to do their salary negotiation, they can check out

Gillian: Let me tell you, if I was going for a big job, I would be paying the big bucks to have you for sure. Because there would be a very good ROI, there's no doubt about it. Yeah.

Glin Bayley: Thank you.

Gillian: Well, Glin, thank you so much.

Glin Bayley: You're most welcome. Thank you for having me here.