Your transcript

[00:00:00] Gillian: How much of your career success comes down to your habits? Well, today I'm delighted to welcome back the incredible Dr. Gina Cleo. If you haven't come across Gina in the media, she's been making waves again with her new book, The Habit Revolution. It's a beauty. Now in this episode, we're going to be diving into the types of habits that can help you manage the chaos of a busy career.
[00:02:15] That's right. How you reduce stress, boost your confidence at work without having to rely solely on willpower. Now, what's terrific about Gina's approach is yes, she has the academic evidence based insights, but she's also very practical. And I think her genius is helping people feel more in control, especially if you're someone who loves living a full life Now, before we dive in, here are a few things you need to know about Gina. First and foremost, she is a trained dietitian with a PhD focused on habit change and how it impacts every area of life. Her groundbreaking research has earned recognition around the world. In both academic and media circles, when the media needs a spokesperson on habits or change, Gina is the go-to expert.
[00:03:06] So you kind of see her everywhere. She offers her own programs, and you'll hear her talk about that at the end of our chat today. And Gina, well, she doesn't just study habits. She lives them. Which we'll be probing into because let's be honest, who wouldn't want to know what a habit expert does in her own life to fuel her success. So without further ado, let's dive in and chat with the brilliant and inspiring Dr. Gina Cleo.
[00:03:40] Gillian: Gina, welcome. Welcome back to the podcast and I want to tell you that you're actually our first and only returning guests, and I think we're almost on episode number 70 of your brilliant career.
[00:03:53] Gina: What an honour. It's so good to be with you. Thank you.
[00:03:59] Gillian: I love the work that you do and chatting to you. And I feel like we've got lots to catch up with because between conversations, I know a lot has unravelled in your world. And I think the most perfect place to start is probably your biggest project, which has been the release of your book, The Habit Revolution.
[00:04:16] So maybe Gina, share with us like what inspired you to write the book and what sort of insights do you think would be helpful to our audience, which are really, career minded women who are very busy juggling life and work that's important to them.
[00:04:34] Gina: Okay. What inspired me to write the book? I wish I had a really lovely juicy story for you, but it was more like my agent coercing me, like demanding that I write a book because there's just so many misconceptions about habits and it really sets people up to fail. Like when we're doing things like go hard or go home, or if your dreams don't scare you, they're not big enough.
[00:04:58] Like these things are inaccurate or that it takes 21 days to change a habit. It actually sets us up to fail when we're following these myths. And so, I really wanted to write the book because I wanted to help people have some evidence based truths that is digestible and easy to implement and practical and, you know, my inspiration as well as my agent being like, do it now or I'm dropping you.
[00:05:25] Gillian: Nothing like a good commercial incentive.
[00:05:29] Gina: Okay. She wasn't that harsh, but she was a big hype girl. So those two things came together and then, Penguin Random House actually asked me to write a book, and for whatever reason, we ended up going with another publisher and it was just all happened at once. And I'm like, it's meant to be. And yeah, it was, I'm so, so grateful that I did.
[00:05:48] Gillian: Well, as anyone will know who's written a book, there's a lot that goes into it behind the scenes. And I think the other thing, a lot of books are self-published. And so to be approached by a couple of publishers is quite a thrill, right? I think it's, it's validates where you are as an expert. So, congratulations, Gina.
[00:06:05] Gina: Thank you. Thanks so much. Now your other question was, you know, some key insights.
[00:06:12] Gillian: Yeah. What are some of the things that you discovered in writing this book that you think would be really valuable to you know, women who value their career?
[00:06:22] Gina: You know, it's funny because a lot of the insights around habits and the research around it hasn't changed from before and after, but going through the experience of writing a book and now adding this massive project into my life on top of everything else I was already doing, was an awesome opportunity to actually implement a lot of the things that I preach and I can't go past the power of small steps of like five minute morning meditation practice or organising your day the night before or taking five minutes to do some breath work between meetings. It's those little things that I implemented consistently that made this project possible, but also helped me realise how much women, especially career women, need these really simple, but purposeful steps to get the most out of their day and out of their life eventually.
[00:07:19] Gillian: And it makes so much sense, doesn't it those incremental pieces, because, and I think, you know, when I think of our audience, and you'll so understand this too, Gina, because I feel like you've been there as well. Women that want to achieve a lot, they can buy into the all or nothing syndrome so easily, you've got to have these big juicy goals or it's not exciting.
[00:07:41] It's not engaging. And then if you're not pulling them off, you know, you disconnect from that goal and you feel bad about yourself. So, the bite size pieces where you can sustain that motivation and you feel like you're achieving, it just makes so much sense, doesn't it?
[00:07:58] Gina: Yeah, but it's actually so much harder, done than said, because we want to achieve everything, and it feels extremely trivial and tedious to be doing these tiny little things. It's like, if I'm meditating, I'm doing my alms in the corner for half an hour, and that's what I should be doing. This five minutes of breathing, or even two minutes of breathing, surely isn't enough.
[00:08:20] But it actually, it really is, and it's so powerful and it makes such a big difference. And so I think we actually need to get out of our way a lot of the time and humble ourselves and accept that it's actually the small steps repeated consistently that end up to huge results much more effectively than trying to do these big things and not being consistent with them.
[00:08:43] Gillian: That's really sound advice. I think of myself with meditation, and I downloaded one of your meditations actually this week. I can't wait to listen to it. I'm sure it will be great. But many years ago I studied Vedic meditation, which is like transcendental, I think that's how you say it, and it requires you to meditate 20 minutes in the morning and 20 minutes in the afternoon, which spiralled just out of control for me.
[00:09:06] I always felt like I just couldn't quite pull it off the morning, just, and then the afternoon. And now I don't do any of it, but I do some breath work every now and then, right. And I think to your point, you've got to manipulate things to, to feel like you're having a win and getting what you need without being this perfectionist about the whole thing.
[00:09:26] Gina: Totally and I think you said, I've got to fail when we have big goals that are a bit harder to achieve and to not just achieve them once in a while, but to actually make them part of our lifestyle, make them part of our identity, part of who we are, it needs to be small.
[00:09:43] Gillian: Yeah. Yeah. Great advice.
[00:10:45] Now, a lot of the women that I work with and coach, can go through, I mean, all of us can go through this really, with this period where you feel like you're a bit stuck in your career. And so, you know, you turn up to work, but you really feel like you're going through the day-to-day emotions.
[00:11:04] But for them, when they're in that zone, they don't feel valued or seen in the way perhaps that they have been in the past. And that's not a good feeling because they're ambitious and they have a fierce work ethic, but being so stuck in the trenches doing all of that work, they're not feeling valued or seen. And it's something that I see time and time again. What sort of habits can they build to regain control and feel more confident about their path forward?
[00:11:32] Gina: That's a really tough one, and that would be a super sucky feeling, to feel undervalued and not seen. And, you know, we know from research that it's those little things; it’s feeling valued, feeling appreciated, having your efforts acknowledged. That's what creates a really great workplace, work environment, makes you want to go to work and push harder.
[00:11:54] You know, I think maybe we take control back with ourselves and look at our own wins. Like, I have a little wins journal and at the end of every work day, I just jot down three wins for the day. And they could be so teeny tiny, and most of the time they are, but it really helps my brain. It’s rewired my brain to just focus on progress rather than focusing just the challenges or the setbacks or that nobody else noticed, you know, my wins.
[00:12:19] This is about me celebrating me and that became such an empowering thing and really helped me anyway to keep going. And I think something like that could be really valuable for a lot of people who are in workplaces or even work for themselves.
[00:12:34] Gillian: Yeah, I think I think wins a good because when we're in a bad place, we tend to fixate with everything that's wrong with us. So, as you say, sort of reframing reframing our minds differently.
[00:12:40] What about for you, Gina? I imagine part of this whole process for you. The research, writing the book, has been partly experimental thinking about your own life and your own habits. Like what sort of habits really support you and you get so much work done and you have such a full life, what supports you?
[00:13:02] Gina: I have a few non negotiables that I have found work for me so beautifully and the number one thing is good night's sleep. My day really starts the night before and we know that sleep is like the well of health and wellness and life. And when I started prioritising sleep, everything else fell into place much easier. You know, I got up with more energy, so now I exercise most mornings and when I exercise I can focus and concentrate better and I'm more productive. And if I'm more productive, I'm feeling great about my work and my life my like commitment to it and so that propels me to want to do even more.
[00:13:41] And so the cycle starts often with just one thing. And for me, it was sleep, but then also then moved into things like movement, taking periodic breaks throughout the day. Eating really well, like making sure my meals are ready so that I'm not going into the cupboard and being like, oh my gosh, I'm hungry and all I've got is cheese and crackers. It's like having things prepared has been really helpful. It's just such tiny habits. There's nothing profound, but it's consistent. And I think that's been the biggest thing for me.
[00:14:13] Gillian: Yeah, I love that. And sleep is, sleep is so important, isn't it? I, I'm the same. So, what are some of your habits around sleep? Is it a cutoff point where you go to bed? Is it signing off from digital media? Like, what are some of the things that you implement because you, you do have to prepare yourself for success to get a good night’s sleep.
[00:14:32] Gina: Definitely. Yeah. So the research shows that the number one thing we can do to get better sleep is go to bed and wake up at the same time every day. And so that is one of the things that I do. And I even do it on weekends. My friends know Gina's leaving the dinner party before 8 pm because she's getting her bedtime routine ready by 8 pm.
[00:14:53] She's in bed asleep by 8.30. And so it is a non-negotiable for me, unless it's like a wedding or something like really big and even then, I'm grumpy about it. Going to bed and waking up at the same time has been huge for me. I've also got no blue light globes in my bedroom and next to my bedside table. So that's been really helpful to not be looking at like harsh blue light in the evenings. And my husband and I, from probably like 6, 6. 30, everything is dimmed. All our lights are dimmed. We don't spend too much time looking at screens about an hour before bed. I don't drink too much in the evening, like even like tea or water, because then I have to get up a hundred times in the evening. I have really reduced my alcohol intake because alcohol really messes with my sleep.
[00:15:46] So if I am drinking it might be just a lunchtime thing, maybe, but even then, it's very occasional. Just lots of little things that have added up to me having good sleep. I'm not naturally someone who has great sleep because my mind is so active, but I can tell you ever since doing these things, I sleep so well now and nearly every night my Fitbit's telling me I'm scoring excellent sleeps which is just so rewarding.
[00:16:14] Gillian: That is so, and don't you just love the data?
[00:16:17] Gina: Love Gina. Every morning, the first thing I look at, I'm like, yes, she did it again.
[00:16:24] Gillian: That's such a, that's such a great outcome though, such a great outcome. I feel like you and I could live together. I'm the one that wants to sign off from the dinner party too. And on Saturday night, we hosted a dinner party, and they just wouldn't go home, Gina. I was nearly beside myself because it was getting so, so late and I was a wreck the next day. And I'm like, Oh, Gillian,
[00:16:43] Gina: Oh, you'll laugh at me. I've left my own dinner party. I'm like, you guys can keep out here. I'm going to go to bed. I want to get one of those mats at the front of my house that says, welcome, please leave at eight.
[00:16:56] Gillian: I love it. I'll be buying one too.
[00:17:00] Gillian: Oh dear. Let's talk about willpower because you know, people put all their hope into that. It's almost like the blame game. If I had more willpower, I'd be able to go to the gym every day. If I had more willpower, I would be able to speak up in those important meetings in the way that I want to. I could set boundaries. I could find time for myself. All of those sort of things. Why is willpower alone not enough, Gina?
[00:17:29] Gina: I love that you've asked this, and I've got a whole chapter in my book about this because you're right. Willpower, you know, we're disillusioned with this idea that willpower is the dominant paradigm that we need to use to get things done. And when I am doing my corporate events, one of the questions I ask people is who here wishes or have said to themselves, God, I wish I had more willpower or discipline and nearly everybody says, yep, I've said that to myself. But why it doesn't work is think of willpower, like a muscle, it gets tired, especially when we're balancing so many responsibilities.
[00:18:03] And this is why relying on willpower alone, it's not a sustainable strategy for habit change. So instead, we should focus on redesigning our environments that make our desired habits easier to follow and become less reliant on willpower. So for example, you know, if you struggle to speak up in a meeting, so an example that you brought up, make it a habit to write down one point that you want to contribute before every meeting.
[00:18:30] And the habit is building through preparation, not sheer willpower. And it's the structure that leads to consistency. So make that part of your pre-meeting prep, so one thing you're going to ask, one thing you want to contribute, you have it there. Now you're not in the meeting like going, what do I say?
[00:18:48] It's like, no, you've, you've thought about this already. Make it really easy for yourself. Willpower is absolutely a fleeting resource, so we can't depend on it.
[00:18:57] Gillian: Yeah. And I read somewhere, Gina, that like 40 percent of our behaviours are habits. So if you think about a career, like the more disciplined habits that you cultivate around the things that you want to develop, just like the example you just gave, of course it's going to help you. Like it's very pragmatic, isn't it, when you pull it apart?
[00:19:18] It's like setting in a micro goals, like in the meeting today, this is what we want to accomplish.
[00:19:23] Gina: Yeah, and our environment is such a strong driver of our behaviour. I've started this habit recently where I want to be present when I'm in the shower. Because normally, like, I like the idea of just like micro meditations throughout my day. And so in the shower is one of those times where I'm just like, I just want to be here with the water, noticing what the soap smells like, you know, have a little Zen spa moment in my three minutes in the morning.
[00:19:47] And I kept forgetting to do it. I'd be in the shower. I'm like, hey, what am I going to wear today? What's my first meeting? Oh, I have to wear this. Like all of this. Right. And so I put a little stone just where the soap goes on the side that says, be here now. And it has helped me significantly because I get in, it's the first thing I see. I'm like, yes, that's right.
[00:20:07] This is my meditation time. And that environmental change has made it now a habit. I don't need to see the stone anymore because I've developed the habit already.
[00:20:17] Gillian: Yeah, that's so interesting, isn't it? Let's talk about environment because environment is, It has to be such an important trigger thing for people.
[00:20:25] And I know even when I'm thinking about having a super productive day, I'm very mindful of, for me, I'm a little tidy person having everything all clean and organised, ready to rock and roll because clutter and I don't do well. And it's not going to be conducive to me just to diving into the deep work.
[00:20:46] What are the insights around environment and adopting good habits?
[00:20:51] Gina: Huge. Environment plays a massive role in our behaviour, you know, and it's the littlest things. If you, for example, want to eat healthier and you've got the Coco Pops there and they're battling it out with the oats right next to it, you've got to grab the Coco Pops because, hello, chocolate sugar is so much better than the dry oats, which takes time and like, you know, they're not going to be as exciting as the Coca Pops.
[00:21:14] But if you put those chocolate Coca Pops at the very top of the pantry, somewhere where it's harder to reach, you might need a step ladder to access it. The oats might win. The oats will definitely win if you've made them the night before. They're in the fridge and they're at eye level. So when you open that fridge, it's the first thing that you grab.
[00:21:32] We have to create facilitators and reduce the barriers for the things that we want to do and create more barriers for the things that we don't want to do anymore. And it's that environment that facilitates all that because our brain loves the path of least resistance. So if we can create an environment that's conducive to that, we're already halfway there.
[00:21:57] Gillian: So if environment is really important, and that just makes so much sense, and then making them digestible size habits, like starting small, rather than the big, hairy, audacious goal, what else is important in curating good habits, Gina? One of the things I remember from our last conversation is, you can kind of max it out at introducing three, you know, more than three.
[00:22:21] And it's just too hard to try and keep your eye on all of those things at one time, if you're doing it simultaneously.
[00:22:28] Gina: Yes. Up to three, make it really small, keep it super simple. And I say, track your habits. So using a habit tracker, there are apps you can use or there's paper based trackers. I've got a whole bunch of free resources on my website if you wanted to link them. But essentially, you know, when you give a child a gold star and they like, for doing a chore and they're like, oh, that feels really good.
[00:22:49] I want to do it again. We don't grow out of that reward learning as adults. So when we do a habit and we tick it off that we've done it, we get a little hit of dopamine in our brain and our brain loves that and it reinforces it. So our brain goes, that felt really good. We should definitely do that again.
[00:23:07] And it reinforces the habit. So. that's one of the biggest things. The other one, and it's the number one predictor of success is a thing called self-efficacy, which is the belief in our own ability to achieve a task. It's the number one predictor of success. If we don't believe that we actually can and will achieve the goals that we've set for ourselves, we probably won't get there.
[00:23:30] We have to know that we can, and one of the ways to do that is, again, to make them small enough that you know you can't say no to doing them, and they are achievable, and then work your way up from there.
[00:23:41] Gillian: Yeah. That just makes so much good sense. Yeah. I love that. Gina. Gina, we are running out of time. I would love to keep talking to you, but I feel like you touched on something that we all need to know about, and that is where do people find you? Like, tell us a little bit about how people can find you and anything you want to share.
[00:23:59] Gina: Oh, thank you. Well, you can grab me on my website. It's got all the juicy stuff on there. My habit courses, my book, my meditation download. There's a free habit masterclass that people are welcome to do. You get five mini videos sent straight to your inbox. You can also find me on socials, so I’m @DrGinaCleo and my website is drginacleo.com. So come say hello. I personally read and reply to every email, and I love connecting with people.
[00:24:29] Gillian: Yeah. Amazing, Gina. Well, I just love the work that you're doing. I always find these conversations so engaging because I think it makes us think about ourselves and what we can do to improve ourselves and our lifestyles and our careers. And it's, it's just so important, isn't it? To be always plugged in to that. So thank you. It's, it's always a pleasure and I'm so happy for your success too.
[00:24:52] Gina: Oh, thank you. And thanks so much for having me back. It's always lovely chatting with you.